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Politics
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Politics
Guest 6/17/2009, 05:01
Any political hounds in the group? Republicans, Democrats, Independents... post everything here!
Guest- Guest
Wolfe9165- Soldier
- Posts : 29
Points : 40
Join date : 2009-06-12
Age : 33
Location : Slingerlands, NY -
Re: Politics
Guest 6/27/2009, 00:52
I support prop 8. Given the religious/spiritual connotations of so many people in this country and elsewhere, 'marriage' should remain between 1 man and 1 woman. However, I do support the right of same-sex unions with equal rights, just not for it to be called a 'marriage.' Still, this is not one of my primary issues by any stretch...
Guest- Guest
Re: Politics
Wolfe9165 6/27/2009, 02:24
See, I'm one of those people who think of it this way: Who the hell cares that a man is in another man's bed? If they love each other, let them marry. Don't call it a 'friendship' don't put it under the rug. They are who they are, and I'm sick of people telling me otherwise, especially when they want to argue so strongly about it, and have nothing to back it up but religion, then attack me about God saying I will rot in hell.
I disbelieve that God would want people to hate someone for something beyond their control, or sticking up for the weak, right?
I am no believer in God, but don't get me wrong. I have my own Morals, if I were classified under a religion, it'd be under Methodism. I believe in the morals, such as "Love your neighbor." I do, everyday I show peace to them, I smile and wave, even though they hate me with a firey passion. Why? Because they are the sheltered type, and I listen to metal. Does it make me a bad person? No.
Does it make someone a bad person to be Gay? No. They're Gay simply because somewhere along the line, the DNA made them that way. I'm not going to hate them simply because they're Gay, if I hate a Gay person, it's because something set me off about them. Same reason I'd hate anyone, and there's only one person I hate. Everything else? It is what it is, can't change it, can't cover it up, eventually it'd come out of hiding twice as strong then before, in an angry mob. The way I see it? Civil rights now, marriage rights now, why? Because then America would be a free country for once in its long history of Hypocritism.
I disbelieve that God would want people to hate someone for something beyond their control, or sticking up for the weak, right?
I am no believer in God, but don't get me wrong. I have my own Morals, if I were classified under a religion, it'd be under Methodism. I believe in the morals, such as "Love your neighbor." I do, everyday I show peace to them, I smile and wave, even though they hate me with a firey passion. Why? Because they are the sheltered type, and I listen to metal. Does it make me a bad person? No.
Does it make someone a bad person to be Gay? No. They're Gay simply because somewhere along the line, the DNA made them that way. I'm not going to hate them simply because they're Gay, if I hate a Gay person, it's because something set me off about them. Same reason I'd hate anyone, and there's only one person I hate. Everything else? It is what it is, can't change it, can't cover it up, eventually it'd come out of hiding twice as strong then before, in an angry mob. The way I see it? Civil rights now, marriage rights now, why? Because then America would be a free country for once in its long history of Hypocritism.
Wolfe9165- Soldier
- Posts : 29
Points : 40
Join date : 2009-06-12
Age : 33
Location : Slingerlands, NY -
Re: Politics
Guest 6/27/2009, 03:06
Good response, but I'm afraid you missed my point completely. First of all, nobody told you otherwise... if you want a free country ruled by Democracy, then you have to respect the right of the voters. Every time this is brought to a vote, people seem to vote against the idea of gay marriage. If we want a Democracy then great, let the people decide. If not, we can allow activist Judges to make our decisions for us.
I completely agree with you on most of what you said. If you will re-read my post, I simply stated that I do not support 'marriage'... but I said I supported the same entitlements under a Civil Union. Reason being, the religious significance and historical context of marriage to a great majority of our population.
Next, I'm not sure who you are talking about... but I am not some fundamentalist threatening Hell on anyone and I don't believe that is what most people do either.. it is nothing more than a stereotype and a personal attack on those with alternative beliefs to your own. I was simply trying to state that we should respect the religious beliefs of OTHERS and the way that free-citizens vote on these issues. Your issues with America and its alleged hypocrisy are obviously rooted much deeper than this issue alone and I have a feeling that we were being set up for this. I respect your opinion, but if you truly want a nation that is not hypocritical, determined by a vote and the voice of the people, then you have to allow the voters to decide... not just something that sounds right or that you support. That would be hypocritical.
IMO, this country IS hypocritical. Why? Because of the activists bypassing the will of the people. Those with money, power, etc... stack the deck in their favor and the little guys, you and I, end up getting the shaft. You may end up believing that DNA results in homosexuality. Great. I agree with you. However, others do not feel the same way and their is no conclusive evidence to suggest that we are right and their is no conclusive evidence suggesting they are right, to my knowledge (if you have proof...please share and I will stand corrected). In a free nation, freedom of religion and religious beliefs must be respected. You may believe that they are misguided and they very well could be; however, let's not miss the point. The point is that we are a Nation that is supposed to be ruled by law and the Democratic system. If you do not support the way it works, then that is another issue altogether. I for one do not think a Democracy is the ideal system of Government...but, I love my country and I respect its laws, its history, and its system even if it could use some serious improvement.
One more thing, I believe the case against gay marriage can be argued in many ways outside of religion. What about the 'slippery slope' argument? If we were to allow gay marriage, who is to say that a man or woman cannot marry multiple partners? How about marrying a dog? Does anything go or where would you draw the line? These are just a few issues that should be considered before attacking everyone who has an alternate viewpoint to yours and labeling them as something they are not. California, one of the most 'liberal' states in the Union, voted overwhelmingly against gay marriage. These are not fringe radicals or Bible-thumping fundamentalists... they are the average representation of the general population who decided on the issue. This was not a secretive meeting amongst elites, but an important issue where voters turned out by the 1,000's to make their voices heard. This happens time and again when the voters actually have the opportunity to decide on this issue.
I'm not sure of the tone that you meant to convey in your post, but I felt it was an attack against my position on the issue. You are entitled to your opinions the same way that I am. However, it is presumptuous to suggest that we are all radicals hell-bent on ruining the lives of minority groups such as homosexuals and threatening those who disagree with the old 'fire and brimstone' speech. In fact, from my perspective, nothing could be further from the truth. So, once again, I said that I supported Civil Unions with equal rights to that of marriage, but out of respect for the voters and for the religious beliefs of others, I do not support gay marriage. It's not about sweeping someone's sexuality under the rug... I don't give a shit about someone's sexual preference. What I do care about, however, is the ability for free peoples to regulate themselves and create their own laws. Neither of us may agree with what the people decide, but if you want Democracy, that's the nature of the beast. Otherwise, we are no better than Iran, China, North Korea, or any of the other shit-holes dictated by tyrannical leaders. Whatever someone's motivation for the issue, that is up to them to decide how they will vote according to their personal belief system. Which is fine. What is not fine is determining how others will vote because one thinks it is close-minded, out-dated, or whatever else. So I suggest that you proceed with caution before saying that nobody has any reason to argue for this issue outside of religious zealous... there are equally compelling arguments from both sides of the isle.
I completely agree with you on most of what you said. If you will re-read my post, I simply stated that I do not support 'marriage'... but I said I supported the same entitlements under a Civil Union. Reason being, the religious significance and historical context of marriage to a great majority of our population.
Next, I'm not sure who you are talking about... but I am not some fundamentalist threatening Hell on anyone and I don't believe that is what most people do either.. it is nothing more than a stereotype and a personal attack on those with alternative beliefs to your own. I was simply trying to state that we should respect the religious beliefs of OTHERS and the way that free-citizens vote on these issues. Your issues with America and its alleged hypocrisy are obviously rooted much deeper than this issue alone and I have a feeling that we were being set up for this. I respect your opinion, but if you truly want a nation that is not hypocritical, determined by a vote and the voice of the people, then you have to allow the voters to decide... not just something that sounds right or that you support. That would be hypocritical.
IMO, this country IS hypocritical. Why? Because of the activists bypassing the will of the people. Those with money, power, etc... stack the deck in their favor and the little guys, you and I, end up getting the shaft. You may end up believing that DNA results in homosexuality. Great. I agree with you. However, others do not feel the same way and their is no conclusive evidence to suggest that we are right and their is no conclusive evidence suggesting they are right, to my knowledge (if you have proof...please share and I will stand corrected). In a free nation, freedom of religion and religious beliefs must be respected. You may believe that they are misguided and they very well could be; however, let's not miss the point. The point is that we are a Nation that is supposed to be ruled by law and the Democratic system. If you do not support the way it works, then that is another issue altogether. I for one do not think a Democracy is the ideal system of Government...but, I love my country and I respect its laws, its history, and its system even if it could use some serious improvement.
One more thing, I believe the case against gay marriage can be argued in many ways outside of religion. What about the 'slippery slope' argument? If we were to allow gay marriage, who is to say that a man or woman cannot marry multiple partners? How about marrying a dog? Does anything go or where would you draw the line? These are just a few issues that should be considered before attacking everyone who has an alternate viewpoint to yours and labeling them as something they are not. California, one of the most 'liberal' states in the Union, voted overwhelmingly against gay marriage. These are not fringe radicals or Bible-thumping fundamentalists... they are the average representation of the general population who decided on the issue. This was not a secretive meeting amongst elites, but an important issue where voters turned out by the 1,000's to make their voices heard. This happens time and again when the voters actually have the opportunity to decide on this issue.
I'm not sure of the tone that you meant to convey in your post, but I felt it was an attack against my position on the issue. You are entitled to your opinions the same way that I am. However, it is presumptuous to suggest that we are all radicals hell-bent on ruining the lives of minority groups such as homosexuals and threatening those who disagree with the old 'fire and brimstone' speech. In fact, from my perspective, nothing could be further from the truth. So, once again, I said that I supported Civil Unions with equal rights to that of marriage, but out of respect for the voters and for the religious beliefs of others, I do not support gay marriage. It's not about sweeping someone's sexuality under the rug... I don't give a shit about someone's sexual preference. What I do care about, however, is the ability for free peoples to regulate themselves and create their own laws. Neither of us may agree with what the people decide, but if you want Democracy, that's the nature of the beast. Otherwise, we are no better than Iran, China, North Korea, or any of the other shit-holes dictated by tyrannical leaders. Whatever someone's motivation for the issue, that is up to them to decide how they will vote according to their personal belief system. Which is fine. What is not fine is determining how others will vote because one thinks it is close-minded, out-dated, or whatever else. So I suggest that you proceed with caution before saying that nobody has any reason to argue for this issue outside of religious zealous... there are equally compelling arguments from both sides of the isle.
Guest- Guest
Re: Politics
Wolfe9165 6/28/2009, 06:46
I don't remember a whole lot of that post, so I can't really retort on some of it, however, as for proof, here are some studies by a person in particular: http://www.soulforce.org/article/644
They seemed to know what they were doing, as for other actual websites, I am trying to find them now. Typing as I go, anyhow, as for marrying multiple women/men, we already have that. Again, I have to bring in religion, only for the fact that if you're apart of a specific religion, you can actually legally do that, protected under the constitution. Or you could simply divorce. As for the proof:
Here: http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1925
And Here: http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_mental_health.html
Mind you, they all have something indicating that Religious sanctions did in fact influence the majority of the law, and that religion did in fact start the hate. Also, I didn't read everything, so if the information here is incorrect, then please notify me, so that when I am more awake and can actually read without being confused by simple text, I may actually edit the post, so that it can be accurate, and more full.
They seemed to know what they were doing, as for other actual websites, I am trying to find them now. Typing as I go, anyhow, as for marrying multiple women/men, we already have that. Again, I have to bring in religion, only for the fact that if you're apart of a specific religion, you can actually legally do that, protected under the constitution. Or you could simply divorce. As for the proof:
Here: http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1925
And Here: http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_mental_health.html
Mind you, they all have something indicating that Religious sanctions did in fact influence the majority of the law, and that religion did in fact start the hate. Also, I didn't read everything, so if the information here is incorrect, then please notify me, so that when I am more awake and can actually read without being confused by simple text, I may actually edit the post, so that it can be accurate, and more full.
Wolfe9165- Soldier
- Posts : 29
Points : 40
Join date : 2009-06-12
Age : 33
Location : Slingerlands, NY -
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